switching from Vegas 7 to SE

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paulfierlinger

Mirage 2D animator
I might as well start this department off with a question that has had me worried ever since I have prepaid my delivery of SE. I am in the midst of animating an 80 minute 2D film in Mirage, using Vegas 7 as my current NLE. The source size is 1080p but I downsize to 720p before I bring my QT clips into Vegas.

What has me worried is how am I going to make the transition without having to reedit every bit of the 17 minutes I have completed so far. I have used no FX in V 7 except for real time dissolves. I have heard about AFF but have never done this nor do I know anyone who has done this before.

Is there someone here who could help alleviate my worries and explain what is involved in this process and if it can even be done between V7 and SE or if I should use an EDL, which is just as much a mystery to me.

My next question, related to this is, can someone tell me if I will need to downsize to 720p in SE as well (my film is headed for theatrical release, slated for a mid 2008 release). I downsize now because V7 can't sustain real time speed of 1080p clips for any length of time above one or two minutes. Actually V7 slows down on some clips even at 720p, particularly clips with zooms.

I work on a PC with a dual processor raid and 3GB of RAM.

Thanks in advance for any help you can offer.

Paul
 
Just a thought here, based on my single experience with actually trying to do a project based on animated clips. I was making some space ship sequences for use in a sci-fi type movie. The less said about that project, the better!

But what I learned that may apply to you, is don't spend too much time in your NLE at this stage. Assemble the clips into a rough cut edit, so you can see what you have, but I would say don't spend any time with disolves yet. That will make it easier for you to make the jump to SE, or what ever else you end up using.

In my space ship sequences, I had spent a whole lot of time with LW cranking out the shots, sometimes 3 or 4 views of the same sequence, so I could cut them into a video. I rendered them all full size, with everything turned on, reflections, shadows, etc. Then I had lots to edit with. The smart move would have been to render super low res, do my edit, then go back and render full res of only the shots I needed. Would have saved me probably a month of rendering. I had slow systems then, and even with ScreamerNet running 24 / 7, it was painful. Now, with my 2 new systems it woulnd't have been so bad. But the same idea holds. I'd recommend doing a low res version first, do a quick cut edit, get your story assembled, then go back and do the big renders.

Hope you can gleen some nuggets from that. I know it doesn't quite fit what you're saying, and I get the idea you're a whole lot smarter than me here anyway :)

Good luck, and be sure to post back when we can go see it!
Carlin
 
Carlin, thanks for the advice but I work in a very different way and one of the ways we are different is that I edit in tandem with my animation work; I draw scenes and put them together to a previously prepared soundtrack. I actually have the entire soundtrack of the 80 minute film recorded with real actors and edited before I even start the animation. I don't draw storyboards but I do make animatics which I edit to the soundtrack (which already has some music composed and recorded as well). I might have 10 minutes of animatics in place on the timeline before I start animating.

Then I animate scenes starting with scene one until I arrive at scene last and along the way replace each animatic scene with my newest pencil test scene and once my wife finishes coloring backgrounds and frames I replace PTs with final color scenes and naturally, I want to see all the proper edits in place as the film grows.

In other words I don't collect all the scenes first and when finished drawing start the editing process. This is the only way I know how to make films and I've made close to a thousand of them -- all by myself because I have been a freelancer all my life. I worked this way even when everything was on film.
 
OK, here's what I have:
3.4 Ghz dual core processor
4 GB DDR2 memory
8 port SATA Raid controler
7 500 GB internal HDs
NVidia Quadro Video Card
ASUS P5LD2-delux motherboard
 
Paul

Thanks for taking the time to explain your work flow. Like I said, I suspected you knew more than I did :)

In my video work (weddings mostly) I tend to shoot too much footage, and then cut down to the best. I can see where that wouldn't be a good move if you're doing animation!

I have always said I would benefit a lot from working with someone else, like a mentor. When I started doing animation stuff, all I had was POV-Ray. Ran on DOS, no GUI. Again, for me, when I say Animation, I'm thinking Lightwave. I've never did anything really professional with the 3D side actually. The irony is that I got into Video stuff to support my 3D stuff, I bought my first MiniDV camera to record landscapes to put 3D stuff into, then I shot a wedding for a friend, and some how 6 years later I hardly have time for 3D stuff anymore :)

Very cool to hear that you're doing hand drawn animation, if I read that correctly. That's awesome! Also that you and your wife work together. Congratulations on that.

Do you have a website?

Thanks
Carlin
 
Quick thought to keep on the subject here!

If nothing else, you could always export the work you've already finished as an uncompressed AVI from Vegas, as individual scenes, to bring into SE. Then at least you wouldn't have to start over, right?

Something else I'm getting stuck on here, in your first post you say you're working "in Mirage, using Vegas 7 as my current NLE. The source size is 1080p but I downsize to 720p before I bring my QT clips into Vegas."

If that is the case, are you planning to stay 720p or finish back to 1080p? I haven't used Vegas 7 aside from about 20 minutes one night with the demo. Is it downsizing the clips, or just the project? When you're done the project, can you then switch your project settings to 1080p and output your final?

If you can out put 1080p, my first idea of outputting each scene as uncompressed AVI should fit your work flow, and let you move over to SE fairly easily.

Again, I think I'm stating the obvious. That and the way I work isn't always useful to others either :)
Good luck.
Carlin
 
Yeah, just do a "save as" with "Copy and trim media with project" check in the Save As requester, while in Vegas...

then in SpeedEdit, if I understand that it's a newer incarnatio of the Toaster editor, you should be able to pull it to the storyboard without too much hassle.

Or you could just finish this project in the NLE you're currently using. The go with SE on your next...just my thought. I mean, planning the completion of your current project based on software you haven't even seen or tried yet isn't advisable.

Not that I'm not twitchin' to get my hands on SE either...but I'm up to my neck in a 1hr 30min feature and won't be porting it over, it'll get done with the workflow I started with.
 
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Note that save as EDL in Vegas is NOT an EDL. It is a text version of their own project format.

There is a script somewhere (can't remember exactly) that exports a real EDL.

Also, keep in mind that EDLs are made for very simple linear style editing. Overlays and such won't make it through.

If you couldn't do it with two decks, the EDL will toss it out the window.
 
Note that save as EDL in Vegas is NOT an EDL.
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Yes, I remember now reading about that on the Vegas forums. So what is AFF? Can that be of any help? Otherwise I think I will just have to spend some time reediting what I have in SE. The sunny side of that prospect is that it'll sure help me get aquainted with SE's workings.:)
 
And considering it's the world's fastest editor, you will at least be taking less time to re-edit than with any other package :)
 
I don't think there are any other packages I would have gone to. Vegas isn't all that bad, after all but I like to keep my applications coming from the same town if I can't get it all in one package (and the forum formats are the same too).:)
 
Your work is moving, introspective and thought provoking Paul.

If you end up using SE to do the movie, Newtek should run, not walk to ask to feature you in their profile section.

Well they should do that whether you use it or not. Just because you own a copy. :)


Jim
 
Hi Steve, so you don't have any encouragement either about an easy, painless transfer, ey? Well then for that I'll be on your doorstep via telephone day and night until I learn everything and get my edits done all over again. I tell you, I should be an expert after that on comparing the ease and speed of the two NLEs. No interviews before I'm done (to be on the safe side).
 
paulfierlinger said:
So what is AFF?
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AAF, not AFF. AAF = Advanced Authoring Format. AFF is Advanced FORENSICS format -- something crime investigators use for analyzing hard drive data.

See Advanced Authoring Format for details about AAF. But basically, it's a Super-EDL that's flexible and accommodates anything modern NLEs can create.

Yes, it would be what you need in getting your Vegas timeline into SE, but sadly, Newtek is NOT a member of the development group creating this free and open source format. Hint - Newtek... get on board, join hands with Apple, Sony, and many others and add AAF support to SE!!
 
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Thanks Dean.
You can depend on me to mangle any name, acronym, or expression (oh and numbers; mostly numbers!).

It is strange that NewTek, presumably wanting to see people switch party affiliations, wouldn't have something in place to make this switchover as attractive as possible. I'll just have to wait and see how it goes...

I have my film split into a series of 5 to 7 minute episodes to make editing more manageable and I suppose the easiest for me would be to render each of the completed segments into a single avi which I would inport into SE. Later, if I needed to make a change (and I always do) I can split the avi and insert a new clip between the two closest clear-cut edit points.

This should be simple enough. Will it make a difference if this compiled and lengthy clip is an avi or QT? Which should I choose to make the transfer lossless? Any advice? Each of my current clips are 720p QTs downsized in Mirage from 1080p.

Later, I will have to decide whether I want to stay with 720p as my final product or replace all clips by the original 1080p clips before conversion to 35 mm film. Would anyone know of a major reason why I should revert to 1080p in the end or even now, that SE is supposed to be so fast? Having the computer I described earlier, will I be able to playback in SE 5 to 7 minute films in real time using 1080p uncompressed files, considering that I have typically just a single image layer with 3 or 4 sound tracks? I have no need for any special effects since I draw all the effects I like by hand.
 
Sorry to be pedantic with you Paul.

Please - What is your choice format for the 720p and 1080p options you render out of Mirage? You give mention to lossless in this thread. Also you draw a lot of attention to the fact that you have brought all the clips together into Vegas7.

If you were to output this tomorrow from Vegas, what container format and codec would you expect to use?

The main difference between the Sony-Vegas-NLE and NewTek-NLE products that are shipping today being that although they are both 8bit, Sony has an RGB pipeline and NewTek-NLEs are known for their YUV (YPbPr) orientation. Sometimes these different representations can seem as contrasting in nature as the difference between paint and light. Level errors (calibration) and contouring would probably be an animators enemy.

That very difference might be the very crux of what the best option would be for you. The second selection criterion might be to then adopt a codec that is both lossless (or near lossless) and that performs throughout your whole workflow.

Is 720p the delivery format for broadcast, while 1080p is the delivery format for film transfer? Or is 720p simply more optimal for editing your MOV in Vegas7?

I can see there being a lot of folks here with animation requirements who have Mirage, VT-Edit and eventually SE workflows. Many will have a ventured over to Sony's Vegas too.

Don't you just love it when a question comes in where someone is mixing art and science in such large globs?
 
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rbartlett said:
Sorry to be pedantic with you Paul.
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Don't worry. I like education.

Please - What is your choice format for the 720p and 1080p options you render out of Mirage? You give mention to lossless in this thread. Also you draw a lot of attention to the fact that you have brought all the clips together into Vegas7.
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As you see, I don't have this sorted out in my mind yet. Since I draw everything in Mirage at 1080p I figure that I can go ahead and draw without knowing how I'm going to end this. 1080p can never be wrong, right?

If you were to output this tomorrow from Vegas, what container format and codec would you expect to use?
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Again, I don't know.



That very difference might be the very crux of what the best option would be for you. The second selection criterion might be to then adopt a codec that is both lossless (or near lossless) and that performs throughout your whole workflow.
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Which would be ....?

Is 720p the delivery format for broadcast, while 1080p is the delivery format for film transfer?
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Correct. My film is aimed for theatrical release, worldwide and home video.

Or is 720p simply more optimal for editing your MOV in Vegas7?
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That is it. My plan was to stay with 1080 but this was not a realistic plan. But here's another question; my drawings are all 2D hand drawn and painted in 2s, that is single frames in a 12 fps project, converted to 24fps whilst outputting to an NLE, making it animation in 2s. It's jittery and it's flat. Will this imagery make such a big difference whether it should stay at 720p or revert to 1080p once it appears on the big screen? To keep it at 720 seems to be alright to me but this is based on zero experience with transferring to film. I've just read a lot about the subject and the way I understand things, 1080p is a camera thing and different from imagery coming from a graphics application of a computer. What I could decipher is that the difference between 1080 and 720 on the screen will be minuscule or completely non existant to the naked eye.

I can see there being a lot of folks here with animation requirements who have Mirage, VT-Edit and eventually SE workflows. Many will have a ventured over to Sony's Vegas too.
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That's me.

Don't you just love it when a question comes in where someone is mixing art and science in such large globs?
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According to Eric Shlein in his much acclaimed book Art and Science, innovations in the arts have always
been the bellwethers of what was to come next in science.

Thanks for your patience and please be pedantic with me...
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